SB Nation - Login for mobile commenting

DRaysBay

Catching Targets on the Trade Market

Back in October, jcmitchell took a look at available catching targets here. However, over four months have passed and numerous moves have occurred. With the catcher's spot as the primary weakness in the Ray's lineup, it is time to once again scan the market (the trade market this time) and analyze some potentially available catchers.

However, it seem unlikely that the Rays will make a trade for a catcher at this point. While Davis and Niemann are still trade-able and available assets for the Rays to use to acquire a catcher, the Rays signed Jose Molina and have Lobaton and Chirinos waiting in the wings. Sure, none of those players are exciting or enticing options. Despite this, the Rays probably want to discern if they have a keeper between Lobaton and Chirinos. With this in mind, a trade seems highly improbable, particularly considering the dull market, which is right after the jump.....

Star-divide

1. Nick Hundley (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3376&position=C)

Team: San Diego Padres.
Contract: 3 years of control (arbitration) remaining. Projected cost of 2 million (2011), 4.8 million, and 6.5 million.
Net Value: 20.45 million.

Pros:
1. Hundley is one of the better catchers that may be available. His defense and his bat are both around average, which is an upgrade from the 2011's Rays' numbers at the catching position.
2. Hundley is affordable for a team such as the Rays, only making an average of 4.3 million per year.

Cons:
1. The Padres should not be especially motivated to move someone like Hundley. They don't have an obvious replacement for him, and while they added Grandal, a top catching prospect, he is around a year away from making an impact. This should raise Hundley's cost by a bit, giving more leverage to the Padres.
2. Hundley is coming off his best campaign yet, a campaign which looks very fluky. He hit for a 132 wRC+, but that was fueled by an unsustainable .362 BABIP. The Rays tend to buy low on players, so this would contradict their typical tendencies.

Conversation Starter: Nick Hundley for Wade Davis


2. Kurt Suzuki (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8259&position=C)

Team: Oakland Athletics.
Contract: Signed extension on 7/23/10. Cost of 5 million in 2012, 6.45 million in 2013, and a 2014 option worth 8.5 million with a .65 million buyout. 2014 option becomes guaranteed at 9.25 million if Suzuki makes 113 starts in 2013.
Net Value (assuming the option becomes guaranteed): 14.4 million.

Pros:
1. Suzuki is coming off two straight years in which he suffered from poor luck (.245 and .244 BABIPs respectively). Since his K%, BB%, and ISO were all maintained and only his BABIP fluctuated, it is safe to assume that his luck should turn around. Because of the two past sub-par years, the perception is that his value is low, making him a typical Ray's target.
2. Any catcher that has a league average bat and solid defense is a valuable player. Another positive aspect about Suzuki is his health; he has managed to remain healthy, averaging 140 games over the past four years. From 2008-2011 he has averaged 2.5 WAR, ranking 8th in MLB in that category.

Cons:
1. While Suzuki is a solid player, his contract is a bit hefty. And although his performance dictates a higher amount of money than his payment under the contract, it isn't necessarily cheap for a team such as the Rays. Should Suzuki collapse, the money would still be guaranteed, which is another deterring outlook for the Rays.

Conversation Starter: Tyler Bortnick and Parker Markel for Kurt Suzuki.


3. Geovany Soto (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3707&position=C)

Team: Chicago Cubs
Contract: 2 years of control (arbitration) remaining. He will make 4.3 million in 2012 and a projected 5.7 million in 2013.
Net Value: 11.6 million.

Pros:
1. If there is any truth in career trends, Soto is due for a nice year. Soto was worth 3.7 WAR in 2008, 1.2 in 2009, 3.1 in 2010, and 2.1 in 2011.....It doesn't get more up and down than that.
2. Like Suzuki, Soto is coming off of a poor year, which should lower his value and make him a Ray's target.
3. While Soto certainly isn't cheap, his price is not beyond the Rays' financial constraints.

Cons:
1. There is a common perception that a club's new GM, such as Epstein, is initially reluctant to trade away players. In addition to this, Epstein would presumably desire prospects in a trade for Soto, something the Rays have been reluctant to give up.
2. While Soto was good in 2008 and 2010, his 2009 and and 2011 were both poor years. If he should have production similar to those numbers, you would have to wonder if it is even an upgrade over the Ray's current tandem.

Conversation Starter: Alex Torres, Nick Barnese, and Todd Glaesman for Geovany Soto.


4. Ryan Hanigan (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4952&position=C)

Team: Cincinnatti Reds
Contract (assuming a starter's position): Signed a 3 year extension on 3/13/11. He will be payed 1.2 million in 2012 and 2.05 million in 2013. He is also arbitration eligible in 2014 for a projected amount of 5 million.
Net Value: 25.5 million

Pros:
1. Hanigan is a very solid player. I projected him to be worth a conservative 2.5 WAR per year if he gets 475 PAs each year.
2. Hanigan is extremely affordable, which is critical for the Rays.

Cons:
1. Why would the Red's want to trade Hanigan? Sure, they do have Meseraco, the top catching prospect in baseball, but that doesn't mean that they should trade away a valuable asset. At this point, it appears that Hanigan will receive around half of the Red's PAs from the catcher's position.
2. The Reds lost both Yasami Grandal and Ramon Hernandez this past off season, both of whom are catchers. What organization will give up three quality catchers in one off-season?
3. The Rays would almost surely have to overpay in a trade.

Conversation Starter: Wade Davis and Kyeong Kang for Ryan Hanigan.


That does it folks! As previously stated, the options are not very enticing and the chances of a trade seem minimal, though it never hurts to imagine or dream!

1 recs  |  87 comments

Comments

I don't know who, how what or when, but i just don't see Friedman

going into this season of all seasons with Molina/Lobaton/Chirinos and i’ll leave it at that

Is Yadier untouchable on the Cards?

Would Niemann and Davis net him?

We would have to overpay and he only has 1 year remaining
The Reds also signed Dioner Navarro to a minor league deal this past month.

I think there’s a very real chance that Hanigan becomes the Reds’ largest trade piece at the deadline this year if Mesoraco shows he’s as good as the hype (and if Navarro sticks around in Louisville and returns to semi-competent form).

His contract is so, so team friendly, though. That’s really tough to trade away, but if Ludwick, Stubbs, and Heisey all continue to be high K, low SLG OFs, I could see some sort of Hanigan for Upton trade mid-season.

Absolutely no way this happens
Would bean eat any of suzuki's contract?

I have a hard time seeing bean eat any money

i doubt it.

if you haven’t heard they make their players buy their own soda in the clubhouse.

lol that movie was so funny
Arizona

Oakland sent some money along with Cahill in the Arizona deal.

perhaps a blockbuster trade for Wieters?

tough to say what Duquette is going to do in Baltimore

yes it is, but i'll start by saying trading Wieters isn't on the agenda

and go back and read my reply to Sean Rod

release Jamie Shields!
i don't believe i've called him 'Jamie' ever

and i doubt i’d suggest that if Elliot Johnson was a Red Sock, he’d be their best SS

boom
seriously, that's the dude you want to get behind?

I mean, there’s betting on a stopped clock to be right twice per day, and then there’s SF1, who’s never been right about anything, ever. But hey, to each his own.

He's right more often than you are while actually stepping out on a limb
Agreed. SF1 is invaluable to this community, and has been for a while.

Smart enough to pick up new thoughts, but doesn’t do it blindly. Also understands his limitations enough to admit that he doesn’t know everything, or more than many front offices. Sure, he puts on an act sometimes to rile people up, but those comments are transparent enough to see through, and they generate more thought than most.

Please don't ruin the character for us.

We prefer him old and crazy. He’s old and crazy. He’s old and crazy. He’s old and crazy.

He was right on Kotchman when we picked him up
thanks a bunch SK, RJ and free zo, three of the more respected names

who grace these pages—appreciate it

Thanks for including me in with those two that are actually worthy of respect.
Whatever your stance is you must admit that's a good burn
Cobb and Fleming are still on the roster
I would think they would listen to something like

Davis/Archer/Barnese/Faria/Lobaton

no chance. id do that in a heartbeat.
OT question:

trying to create a fantasy league with different pitcher stats. wondering, what other stats for pitchers can be calculated on a game by game, or week by week basis? can FIP be calculated on a weekly basis? ERA+ etc?

No off topic conversation on DRB, sorry pal
If I were offered Torres and a couple of C/C+ prospects for Soto

I’d just hang up.

Soto's excess value

Assuming maintains his 3 year average of 2.1 WAR, wouldnt that set his excess value around 11 million?

So mr maniacs package would be around 9.2?

I had Soto at 2.4 WAR going forward.

Torres is around 9-10 million and I assumed Glaesmann and Barnese could make up the other 2 or so million.

fWAR had an average of 2.1

Are you projecting Torres as a top 50 SP?

I'm projecting Torres at the back of the top 100 overall for prospects.

According to Wang’s research, that is around 9 million. However, the data used in the research is from quite a while ago. Prospect success rates have gone up, making prospects more valuable.

Yeah I could see torres as a top 50 sp even with the mlb.com snub
That seems generous

About a dozen lists are out so far, and I haven’t seen him on any top 10.

Top 100 rather
What lists?

mlb.com and projectprospect, which also had Lee as your #3 prospect. John has him in the top 50 pitchers.

John is a big, fat idiot

He has to sell books to children that gobble his stuff up because no team in their right mind would employ him.

All I'm saying is that the consensus is not out yet.

Manny Banauelos, who really isn’t much better than Torres, is getting in the top 15.

Yeah 2-2.8 for glaesmann and barnese
Kotchman to the Indians

Hat tip to Casey

Suzuki

makes the most sense to me…especially with the Derek Norris acquisition. Suzuki plays good defense and works well with young pitchers which the Rays have a lot of and he has some pop in his bat. plus billy beane is always looking to shuffle the deck in oakland and loves cost controlled prospects.

His option year in 2014 that vests with 113 starts in 2013 is what scares me
i agree

thats a lot of cash and given his track record of health a very real possibility…but 2014 is a ways away and he could be flipped by the Rays after a bounce back 2012/2013…he might be good stop gap until some other talent is acquired.

The majority of his positive value lies in the first 2 years

Im pretty sure if his 2014 option vests, that year might be a wash in value and the rays would be lucky to get anything without eating some cash.

probably so

but if they flip him for a 2014 version of parker markel (hard throwing reliever) it will be a good acquisition. if suzuki can keep a 2 WAR pace and some offense behind the plate for a year and a half and they can flip him at the deadline that would be awesome.

also on a side note he hits bombs off of CC Sabathia.

Pay Suzuki 12 million for the next two years?
if he is a 2 WAR player

you get surplus value and if you can find a trade partner mid way through 2013 you would only pay about 9 million and could get a low level prospect out of it…a lot can happen in 1 1/2 seasons…if his BABIP normalizes and he produces 2009 numbers you might even get some one to eat some of that salary.

Hundley at 3.3 WAR for much less(arb numbers for 2013-2014 seem high) is a better value, IMO

I still think Neimann can get a deal done especially if the Rays throw Lobaton/Chirinos in. Just not sure the Padres want to go into their season with Baker/Lobaton/Chirinos as their catchers. Maybe getting a third team involved could open up some more options.

i like hundley

i think he cold be a good addition, but his asking price might be high because he is coming off a strong season. i dont know why the padres would be interested in niemann, not because niemann is bad or anything, but because the padres can take a league average pitcher on the cheap and make them look like a number 3 or 4 due to their park and the weak hitting NL west.

Neimann should give them a very good chance of pitching 180-200 innings

Something that their pitching staff could use going forward over the next two seasons.

niemann

he is a good player no doubt but he is a fringe #3 or strong #4…I just think if i were the padres i would keep hundley and take chance on a marginal pitcher (aaron harang type) maybe garland, harden, mitre on a minor league deal and keep my young catcher until grandal is really ready.

If Niemann starts the season with the kind of dominance he showed at times last season

he could be traded at the deadline for great value, I think.

On what planet?

How many times has he ever pitched that many innings?

180 IP in 2009, 174 IP in 2011(one 2 week dl stint)

….and despite a DL stint in May/June, recovered nicely to make all of his starts the rest of the season. He’s a big strong guy who was progressing nicely as a solid innings eater, on a team that monitors it’s young pitchers very closely. No reason to think he couldn’t continue to be a guy who can pitch 180+ innings a year for the foreseeable future if healthy.

mr. maniac

of the options presented which one do you like the most and why?

Ryan Hanigan.

I think he is the best player of those listed. He is const-controlled and I wouldn’t mind giving up Davis and a B prospect for him.

I also love that he walks more than he stikes out.

That gives him a very good tool, so to say. While he will never hit for (any) power, I think his K/BB ratio gives him a higher floor when transferring to the AL East.

I used to the same thing about Jaso
Ehh, Jaso didn't even walk more than he struck out in AAA.

And I wouldn’t mind having Jaso if his defense was average.

Jaso had a better BB/K than Hanigan at AAA.
I don't care what Hanigan did at AAA if it translates differently to the majors.

Hanigan, besides for a 5 game stint in 2007, has never posted a K% higher than his BB%. Never.

Jaso, while he did have a phenomenal 2010, stuck out 13.2% of the time and walked 9.2% of the time in 2011.

Jaso has stuck out more than he has walked in two of the past three years.

You have to go to 2008 to find the last time Hanigan did that, and that wasn’t even in the majors.

K/BB

i see what you are saying but i think you are putting too much stock in his K/BB rate.

Why bring up Jaso's AAA numbers if you're not going to look at Hanigan's?

Hanigan has also eclipsed the 300 PA mark just once in his 5 seasons (last year) and posted his worst BB/K in doing so.

Given the majority of playing time, a move from a hitter’s park to a pitcher’s park, and a much, much more competitive division I don’t think Hanigan comes anywhere near the offensive numbers you have in mind for him.

He’s a RH Jaso who happened to come up in a much more favorable situation.

John Jaso posted a 82 wRC+ last year.

And I honestly don’t care if his numbers were similar to Jaso’s pre-2011. Because Jaso, pre-2011, was a good player if he had average defense, something Hanigan has.

Hanigan has not gotten the opportunity to start because they have had Ramon Hernandez.

If Hanigan were to play the majority of the time with the Rays I would expect an 85-90 wRC+ from him, which is perfectly acceptable from the C position and for dirt cheap.

wade davis +1

isnt really that cheap though. i think hanigan is good and all but i think if one of his strongest attributes is K/BB ratio its not that great…plus he is already 31 years old and moving from NL Central to AL East is a big jump. personally i try and target suzuki, and if money becomes too much of an issue i go for hundley and give up a wade davis.

I would expect an 85-90 wRC+ from him

That’s a bit optimistic, IMO. I mean, the guy has a career ISO of .093 last year. .093!!! While playing half his games in GABP.

A move to the AL East/The Trop would kill this guy. And his defense was below average last year. Declining two years in a row.

Bah. "last year" shouldnt be in there.
In his career, he has a 100 wRC+.

It isn’t optimistic to say that he will take a 10-15% drop because he switches to the AL and gets more playing time.

If Hanigan is your favorite, who do you think would be the most likely of the bunch?
Most likely to get in a trade?

Suzuki.

Hanigan

I think giving up wade davis for him is too much. Hanigan has never played more than 91 games and is 3 years older than suzuki…although it is nice he has a strong K/BB ratio.

I feel like the reds need hanigan

And we would have to overpay.

Agreed.

Busty Baker has a reputation of easing rookies in, so Mesoraco probably won’t play all too much in 2012.

Cubs abd A's are most likely to part with their catchers IMO

The padres and reds really dont have in house replacements. Plus reds will try to contend and would probably perfer to have hanigan and meso split time.

I still think suzuki and soto are most available

Crazy trade idea

Wade Davis and Nick Barnese for Hank Conger and CJ Cron.

Maybe Molina would be the perfect person to mentor Conger defensively. I know few people agree, but I really like his offensive potential and switch hitting ability. Could be a good buy low opportunity. He has a strong arm and continues to make strides with his mechanics. I would be ok with him starting the year at durham to continue working if thats what it took.

I'm on board with that if Cron is healthy
I don't think Cron can be traded for yet

I think AF wants MLB ready talent or nothing for the starters, which is damn stubborn of him

Cron signed early so he eligible since jan 24

He mashed after he signed and will rise through the sysem quickly

Oh damn then yeah I'd be all up for acquiring a CJ Cron

It’s not like LA needs him either

At what point did Robinson go from

Exciting prospect in the trade from cubs to not exciting anything.

His background was unique, that caused a lot of the attention. It shouldn't really be shocking that he is having some trouble.
not hitting in his first real go-round at AAA

and first year in the organization. It may be an overreaction, but when a guy who’s always been old for his level struggles at AAA, it causes me to wonder how much of his previous success was the mirage of being a man among boys.

He's only been catching for 2-3 years and learning the position may be having a negative impact on his hitting

He had hit everywhere before and while he may be a question at high levels(or the majors), he may be the type of player who should focus just on hitting and maybe be groomed as a DH player moving forward.

You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of DRaysBay to post a comment.