SB Nation - Login for mobile commenting

DRaysBay

The Rays Tank: Friedman Couldn't Find A Catcher, Feels Bullpen Is Strong

TORONTO, CANADA - SEPTEMBER 22:  Jose Molina #8 of the Toronto Blue Jays bunts during MLB game action against the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim September 22, 2011 at Rogers Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. (Photo by Brad White/Getty Images)

Brad White - Getty Images

8 months ago: TORONTO, CANADA - SEPTEMBER 22: Jose Molina #8 of the Toronto Blue Jays bunts during MLB game action against the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim September 22, 2011 at Rogers Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. (Photo by Brad White/Getty Images)

The Rays started loading up the truck for Spring Training yesterday, effectively signalling the end of the off-season and the beginning of the slow march to the regular season. As if to drive home the point, Andrew Friedman made an appearance on WDAE 620 last night, and some of his answered made it sound as though the team is already looking ahead and has stopped actively shopping for a final few parts.

Marc Topkin has a full list of the various things Friedman said, but here are some of the especially interesting bits:

* They targeted a few catchers they felt would have fit in well but those deals didn't work out and while they are "a little uncomfortable" pairing veteran Jose Molina with an inexperienced partner, either Jose Lobaton or Robinson Chirinos, they feel they will be better overall behind the plate in 2012 than 2011.

* He feels the bullpen has "a lot more depth" than last year, and could see one-two "really good arms" being sent to AAA.

* The competition between shortstop candidates Reid Brignac and Sean Rodriguez has already started in winter workouts and is "going to be a lot of fun to watch.''

So yes, congrats to Sternfan and everyone else that was convinced the Rays were looking for another catcher to pair with Molina. It didn't work out, but it does sound like the Rays tried.

As for the final two points, there were a handful of articles written yesterday about those very topics. Brad wrote about the Brignac/S-Rod shortstop competition over at SBN Tampa Bay, looking at various projections for the two of them. And over at FanGraphs, I wrote about how moving Wade Davis to the bullpen actually makes a ton of sense considering his major-league body of work. Davis to the 'pen would mean that someone like Brandon Gomes or Jake McGee would start the season in Triple-A, but those are the breaks. As Friedman noted, the Rays have a ton of bullpen depth right now.

Oh, and over at Baseball Prospectus, Max Marchi discussed Jose Molina's value and all the different ways he can contribute to the Rays. Should I be scared or impressed that the saber-sphere somehow anticipated Friedman's comments? Weird.

0 recs  |  86 comments

Comments

I love that we have a GM what will never panic and never over pay for anything.
We can't afford to, that's for sure.
He doesn't on the trade market either

Good thing, otherwise Deezy could be a Mariner

And they would be WS contenders.
I really liked that Marchi read.

If Molina can hit enough and stay healthy then hopefully he can get about 400 PAs. That leaves maybe 250 for Chiriton. Loboton is really going to need to bring the glove, because I don’t think he’ll hit even as well as Molina so he’ll probably be on a similar leash as Dan Johnson last year (around 100 PAs) unless they just see Chirinos as being utterly hopeless behind the dish. It’s not an ideal situation, and we’ll probably struggle to even be around league average, but I don’t think it’s any sort of indictment on management as it’s just so dang hard to find good, affordable catching right now.

That would be a tremendous PA spike at his age

Then again, he’s probably never played for a team that treats the catching position as the Rays do either.

Yeah, I doubt it happens

It’s not very likely, but you have to think he’s willing to burn it out after a long career as a sidekick. I don’t think he’ll be able to hit enough or stay healthy playing everyday, but if he can prove me wrong then the Rays are in a really strong position. Even if he’s a .270 wOBA guy then he’s essentially replacement level, but on the off chance that he can put up something around .290 then you can justify giving him more plate appearances while still giving Chirinos a chance to play every day and Loboton can be that breather guy that he truly is. If our weakest link is still a 1+ WAR position then the Rays are in very good shape as a team.

have to figure

the Rays will continue to explore the catching market this spring. They can probably abuse Molina a little more through June and then look for a trade to provide assistance later….like Texas getting Benji Molina (July 1st, 2010).

In the meantime, maybe Lobaton or Chirinos takes hold of the opportunity.

This is my thought as well.
This.

A midseason trade for a catcher is definitely a possibility.

There are a lot of veteran type catchers in baseball going to ST with invites.....

…..that will be creating competition for back-up/platoon for teams. They may as serviceable as Lobaton/Chirinos but would bring more leadership/experience, maybe better defense and possibly some hitting upgrades along split lines compared to them. If AF doesn’t find another full time catcher via trade this spring(I still think he’s looking), I fully expect to see a late sign to upgrade/platoon the position before opening day through a waiver pick-up.

I see no way that Molina plays more than 60-70 games this season and not because of injuries but the fact that he is just getting old and is nothing more than a back-up type these days. In fact, to my knowledge, he hasn’t been on the DL for the last two seasons.

In a dreamworld

The Fat Burrito has a kickass spring for Cincy, and they decide they can part with Hanigan and go with Mesoraco and Navi as a platoon

Catching is solved in 1 of 2 ways this year

1) Chirinos grabs a hold of the opportunity and doesn’t let go. Don’t forget how much the Rays thought of him. The Rangers knew this and when they put their package together to try to trade for Garza, they were working on trying to get Chirinos from the Cubs to put as part of their deal. If Chirinos is healthy, he will get every opportunity to break camp as the backup to Molina.

2) Wait for young catching to develop over 1st half of year and trade for veteran castoff. If Grandal has a successful first half in minors, he could be up by mid-season, making Hundley expendable. If Mesoraco kicks it into high gear, Hanigan could be parted with. Both become more of a reality if either team is struggling with SP. But everything is helped in this department if Davis comes out in ST just tearing it up.

Excellent points.
Chirinos is being severely underrated.
Not defensively which is his biggest disadvantage and the area the Rays have had him focus on.

If that doesn’t improve, I don’t see how he fits in their catching plans.

How many aspects of the catching game are there?

4 I can think of (framing, blocking, throwing out runners, and fielding groundballs/bunts). The only catergory that Chirins struggles in (from the 20+ games I have seen him) is throwing out runners.

The mental and staff-handling parts are factors, too.

I ran across this a while ago, but it’s an older interview with Josh Paul. Paul had a strong defensive reputation, and I thought it may have been overblown,but stuff like this makes you appreciate the qualitative aspects of catching more:

DL: Can you give an example of how you’ve worked a specific hitter, and what you’ve communicated to your pitchers in wanting to do so?

JP: When I caught for the White Sox, I always had trouble with Edgar Martinez, as I’m sure a lot of people did. He was a hell of a hitter. He seemed to be looking for every pitch that I called, and he usually smoked it into the gap. One day I noticed something in the way he took a slider off the plate. He made an aggressive move with his stride toward it, but held his swing at the last moment. It dawned on me that he was looking for that slider. I called for a fastball on the next pitch, and he took it right down the middle without so much as flinching. He took the next one the same way. We got him to pop up the next fastball. He couldn’t take it with two strikes. From that point on I told the pitchers to throw him a ball on the first pitch. They thought I was crazy. They didn’t want to get behind in the count, especially to Edgar. But I persuaded them to sacrifice just that one pitch so we could see, by his stride, what he was looking for. Just like a pitcher can tip what pitch is coming by the way his body moves, so too can a hitter when he is sitting on a certain pitch. The next game I caught against the Mariners, Edgar was 0 for 5, and we continued to have more success with him after that. The reason this approach worked so well for Edgar is that he didn’t swing at a pitch he wasn’t looking for before two strikes. He took those two fastballs right down the middle because he was looking for the slider. His approach was geared for the off-speed pitch. He knew that a swing in that situation, at a fastball, even one that was over the heart of the plate, would not produce the result he was looking for. The fun part about catching is finding ways to get guys out, even if it means using their strengths against them.

DL: Can you give another example?

JP: We noticed that Cal Ripken tipped his approach as well. He was a hitter who used a lot of different stances in his career. Sometimes he would switch stances in the middle of an at-bat, and if you paid attention you could see what he was trying to do to you. Usually, if he was standing straight up he was trying to juice the ball—pull it for power. We would throw him soft stuff away when he stood like that. If he crouched down, he was trying to take you to right field, and he became vulnerable to fastballs inside. Of course, these weren’t automatic ways to get these guys out. Hell, they were Hall of Fame caliber players, but they were intelligent approaches that increased our chances of getting them out.
I fact-checked the "next time I caught Edgar went 0-5" part and it was true.

Sadly I don’t have video or pitch-by-pitch data to confirm the rest of his anecdote.

I fact-checked the “next time I caught Edgar went 0-5” part and it was true.

Wow.

As best as I can tell

This is the 0-for-5 game: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA200104290.shtml

And this, which was Paul’s previous start against the White Sox, is the game where he noticed Martinez’s tendency: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA200104270.shtml

Against the Mariners rather.
I was referring more to aspects that can be calculated.

But that was a good read.

His bat is a wild card

He could well be a true talent ~.260-.285 wOBA guy which would put him at around replacement level

He has a career .279 wOBA while playing the role of the perpetual backup.

If he gets daily reps at catcher, his hitting should improve (relative to what it would be as a backup; not necessarily relative to his career).

I’m with you, Sandy, I hope he gets 400+ PAs. If he really can add that much through framing, he would be the most valuable fielder on the team.

Also, if we make him happy, maybe he joins the Rays as a framing coach upon retirement. :)

I think it's too early in the era for framing research to think it has the magnitude of impact that has been suggested. It's nice to see the arrow pointing strongly in the positive, but I'd hesitate to give him more than +5 at defense

Hopefully Mr. Maddon is able to walk that line between keeping him fresh while also keeping the rust at bay as a .280-.290 wOBA is enough to keep the jackals from ripping his throat out no matter how well the glove plays.

plus 5 framing will have an effect on the pitchers war values as well.

Especially when a huge chunk of pitcher fear is based on k/bb

"pitcher fear"
fear=fwar

Autocorrect goodtimea

"goodtimea"
screw you I'm going home
b& for personal attack
If Molina gets daily reps, the Rays will have to stroll him up behind the plate in a wheel chair by mid May.
The most PA's he's ever had was 297(four years ago)

And not more than 200 since than. It’s a pipe dream to envision him getting any more reps than that at almost 38(and he’s not a model of aging catcher body type like Pudge).

And Molina did have a very successful season offensively last year…mainly because he was spotted 1-2 games a week by the Jays. That is the only way I see him being used by Maddon if he expects him to be productive again.

The article reminded me of how much I miss Gregg Zaun
Voght

I have never seen him play. He must be terrible behind the plate, since his name never comes up. All I know of him is that he put up some decent offensive numbers last year. I’m guessing he is likely a AAAA player? Anyway, ST will be fun, with the competition at SS and C.

I'm not certain McGee has any options remaining.

His contract was purchased in late 2008, and he went down in 2009, 2010, and 2011. He only threw 30 innings in 2009, so it’s possible the Rays can/have procured a fourth option year from the league, just not a given.

Would his TJ surgery have any effect on his options

Not sure how a recovery like that would work.

I imagine it'd likely be Gomes going down anyway.

Or maybe Badenhop? I forget what the consensus was about his options status. But still, seems likely to be Gomes, sadly.

Badenhop definitely has an option remaining

Said so himself in an interview with Topkin

Hard to imagine the Rays optioning him down over Gomes and McGee.
Someone can also be "injured" to begin the year

Maybe Rodney tweaks a hammy, or Lueke trips trying to make his way out the back door. Rays can always buy some time. Someone always suffers an injury in ST, but it depends on Oswalt, etc still being on the market.

KLaw's sleeper prospects came out today, and he did Brett for the Rays.

Mentioned great feel for hitting, more power than expected for his frame, and that he should be above average defensively at 2B.

Rays are very strong up the middle in the minors

Dietrich, Brett, Hager, Lee, Beckham, Mahtook (if remains at CF), and if one of the Rays C prospects can actually pan out…

Here's hoping that Oscar Meyer isn't Bologna
The Bleacher Report is good

“With their signing of Jeff Keppinger, the Rays filled one of their two glaring holes at the time, shortstop and catcher.”
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1060003-tampa-bay-rays-five-catchers-the-rays-could-trade-for

not very good

Keppinger is not a SS, other than in an emergency.

Maybe you were being sarcastic.

He is obviously being sarcastic.
This all day
Trolls trolling trolls at DTrollsBay.fart
Could this be a typical Friedman smokescreen?

Calling other teams bluff?

“We didnt find what we were looking for, oh well. I guess we’ll just keep all of our extra starting pitching like no one said we would.”

Maybe other teams were so sure that the rays “had” to trade a starter, that they just kept low balling us. Maybe Friedman is putting the heat on those teams by making them think we are perfectly content keeping everyone.

I still think the rays trade a starter before opening day. Maybe the market will be better in spring training when injuries and ineffectiveness occurs. Plus other teams will be able to scout our starters more.

I think your last three sentences are more on point than the rest of your post
Right on

The first part is all speculation.

It wouldn’t be the first time Friedman tried to mislead other teams. Just trying to reiterate that we dont “need” to trade a starter and we dont “need” another catcher. Chances are we probably do both though.

How many deals happen during ST?

I’m not saying that Friedman won’t still try. But he’s also all about riding up negotiations while playing teams off each other, which isn’t exactly an option in ST. But I wouldn’t count on anything happening…if it does, that’ll be a happy surprise.

Didn't we have a similar situation in 2008?
Considering SP has the highest attrition rate

This situation might play out better in ST. Either one of our starters is injured or likewise for another team. Demand may be better then.

I just have a hard time seeing something happening in-season. If Niemann/Davis moves to the pen, that can only hurt their value, right?

hammer for aneury
What an awful trade. If we'd waited 4 years we could've gotten Guthrie
Given Davis' salary from his new contract, how would he have to perform as a reliever to live up to how much he makes this season?
Im not sure how his performance as a reliever would help/hurt his value as a starter

He’d have to be a dominant to justify that contract going forward as a reliever IMO

my point exactly. the idea of moving him to the bullpen seems to forget the fact that he would most certainly underperform his contract as a reliever

does anyone see the rays not getting maximum financial gain from their players for the sake of a bullpen arm? only if the plan is to move him quickly could i see it happening.

Not really, he's going to make $1.5m this year.

Spending part of the year in the bullpen isn’t going to jettison his value, especially considering he had almost none last season as a starter.

Was that Dave Cameron on MLB Network's Clubhouse Confidential?

I’m really surprised he called the Papelbon deal the worst, considering how awful the Pujols deal will be.

Jayson Stark
The Rays were able to scrape up enough loose change in the piggy bank to sign Carlos Pena, Luke Scott and Jeff Keppinger. And now, teams that have spoken with them report they’re back to telling other clubs they’ll still listen — but they’re not actively looking to move any of their starting-pitching depth.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog//name/starkjayson/id/7560293/5-players-get-traded-spring-training

I have a hard time believing that.
Jayson Stark is the best kind of mark cuz he don't even know he's getting used
Friedman'd
Thanks for the mention. A great bluff by Friedman saying he tried

and has now conceded to Lobaton/Chirinos. A catcher will be top priority up till OD

Some full time catchers who may be available by OD may include Miquel Oliva, Hank Conger, Bryan Pena

Later on maybe Hundley. If AF opts for a platoon type guy, I could see a lesser pick-up like Max Ramirez, Jason Jaramillo, Humberto Quintanna, Jake Fox or Craig Tatum.

If the Pirates are interested in Burnett for 10 million, not sure why they wouldn’t look into Neimann who could give them 180 innings, cost less and should give them more than 2 years left of useful time. They don’t have much to offer the Rays that might help now but a young catcher like Ramon Cabrera, or a 1st baseman like Matt Hague and a young arm might be of value.

Ive already made my Conger love well know
Known*
Appears that Conger is firmly entrenched as the Angels back-up to Iannetta though.
Using Conger as a back up is a waste, much like having Niemann/Davis in the pen

Not to mention they have 2 offense first catchers

They didn't sign Iannetta to platoon though and they are thin at catcher since they moved Mathis.
I meant traded for with Iannetta
Thats my point

They traded for Ianetta to be a starter for the next 2 years plus. Having Conger strictly as a back up, starting 40+ games, is a waste. I think back up roles should be for veterans or players with limited upside, not talented young players with a lot of upside. It can really stunt their development. Its the same reason im not in favor of Brignac being used as a back up infielder. Lobaton is young but has limited upside and plus defense. He is better suited to be a back up IMO

Dream scenerio would be a trade involving Davis plus for Conger and Cron.

They still have Wilson too

If Rays threw Lobaton in the deal (which would make sense), he could compete with Wilson for back up spot.

Cron+Conger for spare starter

LEHS DO IT

Jake Fox is a nice mention

Not sure if he’s of any worth behind the plate, but he’s got real power and can fill in in the outfield.

Fox's best use would be as a 3rd option as catcher with the Rays.

Having a third catcher would enable Maddon to have more flexibility with his catchers during game, being able to PH(only PH 28 times in 2012) or pinch run for them in critical situations.

He can play 1st base and LF(not particularly well) and catcher(decently) but his RH’ed power would be useful. His reverse splits(better against RH’ers) as a RH’ed hitter means Maddon would have to spot him carefully. I’m not sure if the Rays could afford to carry him as the platoon catcher with Molina though.

It would have been nice if the Rays had shown more interest(maybe they did) in Ryan Doumit early on in FA. His switch hitting and positional flexibility would have filled a lot of needs the Rays had, especially in terms of one player.

Yeah he certainly fits better if you have a fulltime catcher already as he can't be counted on to be that guy

You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of DRaysBay to post a comment.