Thanks to Marc Topkin (Tampa Bay Times) for tweeting out the full list. You can find this list in the Baseball America Prospect Handbook:
So Josh Sale and Robinson Chirinos both didn't make the list. Any other notable omissions or odd rankings that you notice?
0 recs | 205 comments
I'm still scratching my head over Sale.
I know last season wasn’t great, but can’t believe that he doesn’t make Top 30. They must REALLY hate his bat.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Agreed.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
We took the wrong HS outfielder from the west coast
The Marlins took the right one
Sveet - January 26, 2012
Right, O'Connor made the list
Surprised Baileyand Suarez are so high. Also found Vogt’s place curious, thats a pretty big endorsement of the legitimacy of his bat.
Tyler Bortnick on the other hand never gets love.
FreeZorilla - January 26, 2012
I shoudl clarify that if Suarez is so high, Joe Cruz should also be considered.
FreeZorilla - January 26, 2012
MY thoughts exactly.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Did not expect O'Connor over Sale.
Whelk - January 26, 2012
The only thing I can think of is
that O’Conner does have catch and throw skills and a scarce position in his favor.
If they are really that low on Sale’s bat, then he doesn’t have any other plus tools.
But I’d really like to know what they saw last season that dropped him slow low.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Agreed.
Sale was bad, but he wasn’t O’Conner level bad.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Sale had a respectable BB:K rate last year
Gives me hope that mechanical issues can be worked out
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
Agreed.
Sale was bad, but he wasn’t O’Conner level bad.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
From the Rays chat with Bill Balew on Sale.
“I believe it was more of a mental thing than any other aspect. He got a little pull happy and seemed completely out of rhythm. In people I’ve spoken with, some believe he had so many things going through his head that it was paralysis by analysis. Hopefully he can clear his mind this winter and arrive in spring training with a clean slate. He’s likely headed to Princeton or Hudson Valley.”
Doesn’t sound like enough to completely leave him off list.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
and Ballew on O'Conner
“O’Conner is definitely in the top 30. It’s all about making more consistent contact and ironing a few rough spots in his catching mechanics. He has good bat speed but struggles with his balance and his plate discipline, which led to a strikeout rate of 40 percent. That has to improve, but O�Conner is a hard worker who has the drive and determination to succeed.”
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
But he doesn't make the top 30 list though, does he?
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Doesn’t sound like enough to completely leave him off list.
Seriously it sounds like jsutification for not lowering him much from last year.
FreeZorilla - January 26, 2012
yup... makes very, very little sense.
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
I have yet to read anything from a scout from the past year
Who thinks his swing issues are correctable. I hope for everyone’s sake they’re wrong, and Sale does have a reputation of being a gym rat, but if he can’t hit, he has no value. Even Cody Rogers is a better prospect than Sale if his swing issues actually are fundamental.
That said, I agree that if it’s a mental issue, he shouldn’t be out of the top 30.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
When I talked to Sale at the Winter Development Camp
I asked him about his hitting coach. He has his own back home and he works at the gym he built there with his bonus money. I got the feeling that he was almost like a second father-figure to him. He said that his coach would be with him “forever.”
I have no evidence to support this theory, but it might be possible that his personal hitting coach is the one responsible for his current swing mechanics. If so, then there may indeed be little hope for Sale…as like I said he made a point of letting me know that his coach meant a lot to him.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
I didn't like how stubborn he sounded in the interview.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
I am doing a follow-up with him
hopefully tomorrow. A lot of the audio from my previous interview is in bad shape. But if all goes well I’ll be talking to him again soon.
I just got off the phone with Ryan Brett and will have a story on him up in the next few days here or on Rays Digest. He works out at Sale’s gym, so I was able to get a little more info on this.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Bailey is supposed to be a good defender, and his wRC+ was 96, his wOBA+ was 98, and his OPS+ was 95. SO it wasn't like he was awful with the bat.
Suarez has great stuff, but health seems like too big of an issue.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
The point of these should be about going forward, not what they've done.
If he has a massive hole in his swing then that will only get exploited more the higher he goes up the system. They must really like his glove.
Sandy Kazmir - January 26, 2012
Bailey did mash RHP last year
Something positive to go with at least
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
this is proof positive with how short-sighted this ratings are.
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
"this"
Warde - January 26, 2012
got me! you must be nailing that grammar course in your exclusive MBA program!
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
I has to be done. you know this
Warde - January 26, 2012
"I"
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
Luke Bailey and Albert Suarez both seem very high.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
And Snell and Wilking Rodriguez are both really high.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Also interesting that they didn't choose to rank Hernandez.
No scouting reports to give.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
I don't think they ever rank VSL/DSL players
They’ll occasionally rank international signings who have only played complex ball, but I can’t remember them ever ranking someone who never made it stateside.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
Yeah makes sense.
I don’t remember seeing any either. Since the book is really a compilation of scouting reports, then it makes sense to not rank a player that they haven’t seen play live.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Speaking of Hernandez, the few reports on him have all been positive.
I’m getting more excited about him. His power is supposed to be pretty good and he is supposed to be toolsy.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Do you have links to reports?
I have been searching high and low for ANYTHING on him. He has become an obsession. As soon as I get to Spring Training, I am going straight to wherever he is and shoot video and whatever else I can do to get some more info on him so we can all stop suffering from the lack of information.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Hey Gil Renard, please don't shoot our players
Sandy Kazmir - January 26, 2012
This is from Alskor at bullpen banter (he is a fairly reliable source):
blackoutyears at mlbbonusbaby (he is a very respected and knowledgable poster there. He has contacts are sees plenty of players) mentioned that he heard he was a toolsy player.
This thread has some pitcures on him: http://forums.theraysrepublic.com/index.php?showtopic=6668 However, I don’t trust the notes much as I’m not a big fan of his.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
How does compare to someone like Montero
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
Oscar doesn't seem like he will stay at C
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
Based on?
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
Just a guess
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
His face looks like Pudge.
Based on that, I project him to be a great defensive catcher.
Whelk - January 26, 2012
Yup. fish-face
Ben Tumbling - January 26, 2012
Not unless he changes his last name to Molina
Travis Lee - January 26, 2012
the Molina family don't have one of them Oscars yet, I'm sure they could work something out.
pudieron89 - January 26, 2012
Probably the reason we signed Jose
Just to convince him that his family should adopt Oscar.
Travis Lee - January 26, 2012
I wish he'd change his last name to Prado.
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
Good guess.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
rec'd
Ben Tumbling - January 26, 2012
Most good hitting catchers don't
I’m not saying I agree, but even the ones who could work defensively often get moved in the minors to increase longevity and bat impact. This seems to have become less common in the last 5 years or so though.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
He is supposed to be athletic.
And Mike whatever-his-name-is hinted that he can play some defense in a raysprospects.com interview.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
This is what I was thinking
If he can hit, they will not want to wear him down. Kinda like a Wil Myers
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
Or Harper
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
He must have dat der ESPN.
raysfaninminnesota - January 26, 2012
i like the Bush ranking
I think he will be this years Sept pen addition
Dbullsfan - January 26, 2012 via mobile
No Goetzman or Eierman either.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
That is funny, since I thought both were higher than Kes Carter pre-draft.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
I really like Granden
hopefully he can turn things around at the plate.
James Westfall - January 26, 2012
One of these days I'll publish the interview with Goetzman from Winter Development Program.
But he told me he was hurt last year. Can’t remember what it was. Shoulder maybe?
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
i really like carter
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
I like him when he is healthy.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Here is a report on Lobstein....
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
reading that I think I would rather take Riefenhauser over him
I’d wonder their thoughts on him
Dbullsfan - January 26, 2012
Why?
Lobstein’s stuff is better. THey have said before the Riefenhauser does not have a single pitch that is better than average.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
they are close but at some point I want to go with results over stuff
when the stuff isn’t that great like it doesn’t seem like Lobstein’s, especially the fastball.
Dbullsfan - January 26, 2012
They really are not close when it coems to stuff.
Similar fastballs while one guy has a plus pitch and two other potentially good ones. Riefenhauser doesn’t have a single plus pitch. And, for the record, I don’t want to be known as a Riefenhauser hater and I don’t want to get mocked if his stuff is better. I just have to go with the only info we have.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Sounds a little like JP Howell
Except Howell came out of UT, while Lobstein came out of high school. Wonder what his splits are like… A move to the pen might not be out of the question. Thoughts?
Travis Lee - January 26, 2012
Not really
Howell had 5 pitches, broke Clemens’ strikeout record at UT and had great K rates all through the minors. Lobstein is a three pitch nibbler who hasn’t had great K rates.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
yup yup
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
JP Howell went to my high school
and he was awesome.
James Westfall - January 26, 2012
Lobstein is rubbish
Watched him twice last year and he was lucky to reach 87 on the Stadium gun.
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
No swing and miss pitch. Lots of flyballs
Pass
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
Was unaware of the flyball rate
With the seemingly lack of an out pitch, he needs to keep the ball down. So maybe you’re right, doesn’t seem like he’s nearly the prospect he used to be going forward.
Travis Lee - January 26, 2012
This was the two times I watched last year
Nothing special offspeed
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
A 40% groundball rate isn't bad.
And his changeup is supposed to be a swing-and-miss pitch.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
In two games
I saw maybe 4-5 Swings and misses. I also watched Moore twice at the same level and he had 20 both games, but he is a freak.
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
A 40% GB rate *is* bad
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
It is?
That was right around league average last year.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
I was under the impression it was higher
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
45% was average last year.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/updated-benchmarks-for-pitch-types/
Whelk - January 26, 2012
Its pretty bad in the minors
FreeZorilla - January 26, 2012
Sounds like he is adapting to his new game though
It obviously doesn’t look good, but I’m not certain he should be written off. If he’s extremely effective against lefties, then maybe a lefty specialist role would suit him well. Not sure what his splits are. IIRC, minor league splits are hard to find.
Travis Lee - January 26, 2012
Became very sad when minor league baseball made them shut down minorleaguesplits.com
It’s so stupid. Even if MiLB actually does own the numbers (and it’s a tenuous argument at best that they do), one would think they’d WANT more publicity and information so that more people get into their real product, which is the games.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
John, do I get scouting reports on all these guys with him subscription?
And if so, how do I find them? Or do I need to get the handbook….
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
The subscription I gave you will give scouting reports on most guys.
But most of them are pre-draft. I’ll fetch links for you in a sec. The current scouting reports will be available only in the book except for the top 10 which you’ll be able to access as a subscriber.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Here is link.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/# If you click on the binoculars it will give a pre-draft scouting report .
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Thanks.
How much does the book cost? I can’t seem to get my computer to got the page.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
I think it was 29.95 when I pre-ordered it.
Trust me you’ll be getting e-mails from them about it now that you’re on their mailing list.
Also…here is link to current scouting reports for their Top 10.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2012/2612743.html
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
32.95 per the email i got today... still need to order mine.
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
I'm going to order him then.... it has the top 30 reports, right?
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
yup... id say it's in the top 10 purchases i make every year.
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
Going from my list, Sale, Goetzman, Eierman, Ames, Hernandez, and Canzler seem like the obvious ommisions.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
I had all of those guys on my list too.
Except I think I had Carpenter instead of Ames.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
I probably would have Carpenter on my list too if I re-did it.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
I'm suprised they have Vogt at 22 but not Canzler
although I agree on Canzler, I just don’t have Vogt so high
Dbullsfan - January 26, 2012
Keep in mind
That BA’s offices are located in Durham, and by virtue of that, guys who play there are probably seen by more of the staff than players from any other team in the minors. Plus, at least Vogt has some roster flexibility as a Matt LeCroy type who can even play a decent right field.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Vogt was off their list completely until he made it to Durham.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
Vogt early and Vogt often
Sandy Kazmir - January 26, 2012
Doesn't Bill Ballew make the Rays lists?
I don’t know if he’s actually in Durham
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
He made this year's list.
Don’t know about previous years.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
I don't put a whole lot of stock in where Ballew ranks guys, I don't think he's very good
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
i do like reading his reports still, though. agreed on not putting much stock in his ranks.
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
He's made them as long as I can remember
Which is part of the reason I cancelled my BA subscription years ago. That said, all of these guys bounce rankings and the like off the other guys in addition to their own scouting contacts.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
I can't believe Vogt made the list at 22 or at all really
and Canzler was left off. Seems odd, like they just forgot about him or something.
SandalsNoPants - January 26, 2012
If you account for the side of the plate they hit from
And what thew Durham home ballpark does to left handed (suppresses pretty much everything) and right handed (1990’s Coors Field equivalent) hitters, the difference in their hitting isn’t wide enough to justify Canzler over Vogt when Vogt can play replacement level defense at catcher and three other positions and Canzler can barely do that at first. I too would have Vogt ahead of Canzler, although I’m not sure I’d have either one in my top 30. To me, Vogt seems like a poor man’s Matt LeCroy (although as far as I can tell, he’s better defensively at every position than LeCroy ever was), while Canzler seems like a poor man’s Kevin Witt.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
Still laughing at Luke Bailey 15th
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
It's probably based on his RHP numbers & position
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
Position being key
Do you think they base it at all on the major league club’s need? For instance, the Rays need a catching prospect. Do they value the need of the big league club of these rankings or are they just valued relative to the minor league peers?
Travis Lee - January 26, 2012
Splits
vs RHP- .263/.342/.469 15/57 BB/K
vs LHP- .125/.171/.181 3/32 BB/K <-(woof)
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
Ouch.
The good news is that he can hit rights though.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
When I read your Bailey Tweet I literally had water in my mouth
and it ended up all over my computer screen from guffawing.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
Bellew has always overrated catchers
Remember when he ranked Mayobanex Acosta our #12 prospect a few years back when he had a whopping .650ish OPS in Hudson Valley and wasn’t even the full-time starter? It seems like he has a random catcher or two way overrated almost every year.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
THIS was the rating I was looking for upthread when I said I didn't like Ballew
Thanks, slipped my mind
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
Schiano the Buc !
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
Yeah, going to change the avatar since he decided to screw over the program
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
Yeah 11 seasons....YOU MUST STAY FOR LIFE
Warde - January 26, 2012
He could've left at a better time, or at least lined up a successor so we're not stuck scrambling
Imperialism32 - January 26, 2012
Ranks.
I put Romero and Mahtook over Beckham and move Vettleson down.
James Westfall - January 26, 2012
At what point do the Rays give up on Oconner the hitter and try him at pitching
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
I'd imagine he gets another 2 years at least.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
He only played 1 yr of C in HS
I think I read from an interview someone had with him that he’s still adjusting to it. So I’d imagine he’s got a lot of time to work on it.
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
I wonder if the Rays tell these guys to focus on defense first
Work on approach at the plate. Especially catchers
Dome Biscuit - January 26, 2012
Or at least the fundamentals on baseball
Seems like the players under Friedman are polished while under LaMar you made it from pure ability regardless if you were ready or not.
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
BJ was ready to SS at 19
Warde - January 26, 2012
Yeah that might have been on my site and he did say that.
I basically asked him…in as nice of a way as I could….why he sucked last year.
Here is link for those who might have missed it.
http://rays.scout.com/2/1148276.html
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
It must be tough to ask/answer that
Good interview though-you’ve really gotten a lot of solid material
Transplanted - January 26, 2012
Yeah it is hard sometimes.
On the one hand, I want to get the answers to the questions that I know Rays fans want to know. But on the other hand, I don’t want to piss the players off, because I want them to talk to me again this season.
I have the audio somewhere online, I’ll try and find it. You can tell that he was annoyed by the question from the tone of his voice.
and thanks!
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
lol
I remember the first time we discussed this interview somewhere and someone made the funniest comment about the following answer:
something along the lines of “yes, justin, trying to rack those Ks up can really hurt your batting line.” it was one of the negative nancies (sf1, impy, or brick).
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
I said something similar here.
http://www.draysbay.com/2012/1/12/2701615/rays-winter-development-program-impressions
" Justin O’Conner was another guy I talked to that has been a bit of a disappointment in his young career. He told me that he was “paying too much attention to my stats.” I’m not sure what that means, because unless you like looking at strikeouts there wasn’t much to see from O’Conner last year."
But having said that…as with Sale, I think it is way to early to bring out the bust tag for him.
Isn’t there someone here who calls him “Bustin’ O’Conner”?
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
That would be sternfan1.
Bustin’ O’Conner and Josh Fale.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Jamie Yields, OHW and MOM
FreeZorilla - January 26, 2012
"Nick Green clone"
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
please get the players correct if it's me you're speaking of
it was Willy Taveras the player i compared Jennings to
sternfan1 - January 26, 2012
lol... i guess memory loss happens at your age:
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
oh well
sternfan1 - January 26, 2012
rec'd for responding
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
brutal
that is just rough…i guess everyone makes mistakes…and the internet does not forget.
James Westfall - January 26, 2012
reading that over he was the original MOM
sternfan1 - January 26, 2012
As much as people pick on Sterny
It really isn’t a bad thing to have an old-guard thinker on the site, just to keep everyone else in check.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
hmmm maybe that was you
rglass44 - January 26, 2012
Higher on Mahtook
I would put him 3rd after HJL
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
#15!
Maybe I can hold onto this username a little while longer after all…
LukeBaileysaStud - January 26, 2012 via mobile
lol
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
Shouldn't an organization coming off a year where they got 12 of the first 89
picks be rated higher than 11?
sternfan1 - January 26, 2012
No, no one knows if the recent draft class was any good
Especially after 09/10 fell flat
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
Yet some of them are top 30
sternfan1 - January 26, 2012
Well yeah
But it’s hard to really credit the Rays yet
benderbrodriguez - January 26, 2012
has Cobb graduated?
sternfan1 - January 26, 2012
Yeah,
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
When did this happen?
He won’t be on the 25 man roster right?
playjoyce - January 26, 2012 via mobile
He used his rookie eligibility.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
What is that? I didn't know that existed.
Was he on the roster for 45 days?
playjoyce - January 26, 2012 via mobile
Over 50 IP, Cobb had 52.2
BossmanJunior333 - January 27, 2012 via mobile
Over 50 IP, over 150 PA or over 30 pitching appearances
There are also service time elements for rookie of the year eligibility, but most of the prospect publications ignore those.
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
BA is the lowest on them.
John hhas them 7 and I imagine most others will have them around there. This is the same BA that has Callis who said the Rays have no depth, so….
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
lol i didn't realize sf1 is still a mod
talk about a joke that just went way too far.
pudieron89 - January 26, 2012
$tu loves him
raysfaninminnesota - January 26, 2012
maybe i'm not understanding something, but i honestly don't understand the Sale ranking
he is 19 years old, and has played ONE SEASON of professional ball, encompassing what, 250 AB’s? how can anyone justify dropping him entirely based on what is effectively 2/5 of a season of pro ball?
davidsmarch - January 26, 2012
Maybe it's not entirely based on that
Once again, I don’t disagree with you fundamentally. Even if he was awful, he should still probably be top 30 based on his prior reputation alone. But the scouting reports I’ve seen were god awful. He’ll keep moving up with Vettleson for now, since they’re old pals, but I’m not sure how much stock I’d put in his movement as to how the front office thinks about him.
Also, I really think the Hamilton comps are scaring people away. I haven’t heard anything indicating he’s become an alcoholic or anything, but it only took him a year to cover his entire upper body with tattoos, and some people might just be taking that as a bad sign, even if they shouldn’t be.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
Let me know when he's shooting heroin
Sandy Kazmir - January 26, 2012
Show me the scouting reports.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Maybe I'm misrecollecting
But I remember reading things from Law, BA and someone else credible (can’t remember who) that his swing has faults in it that are so far off that there isn’t much hope. I certainly am too lazy to spend a half hour trying to find them again, so you can either take me at my word, discount me or look it up yourself. Either way – doesn’t matter much to me. No matter what, he’s too far away for me to make an independent evaluation.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
I'm not sure if this is the report you are referencing
but this one even though it is few years old breaks down some of the flaws in his mechanics.
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/5/14/1471601/2010-draft-profile-josh-sale
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
No
All of the reports I’m referencing are from this year. One came from complex ball, before the season even started, the other two came after short season started. All three echoed that his swing problems are much worse than people thought coming out of high school.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
Also here is a pre-draft Q & A with Sale from 2010
in which he discusses his approach to hitting and even breaks down his own swing some.
http://yankees.scout.com/2/964455.html
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
I have subscription to Scout, BA, and KL so I dug around.
In August, Callis said this in a chat about Sale: “Wouldn’t worry too much because it’s only his pro debut and he’s not striking out a ton. Still, that’s disappointing from a guy who was supposed to be a top high school bat.”
Then in the chat at the end of the year we heard this: “I believe it was more of a mental thing than any other aspect. He got a little pull happy and seemed completely out of rhythm. In people I’ve spoken with, some believe he had so many things going through his head that it was paralysis by analysis. Hopefully he can clear his mind this winter and arrive in spring training with a clean slate. He’s likely headed to Princeton or Hudson Valley”.
That is all I could find from BA.
From KL I found nothing. I couldn’t search the chats, s he could have mentioned something in there.
From Scout.com. I found nothing.
I can’t seem to find many scouting reports on his 2011.
mr. maniac - January 26, 2012
Careful posting that stuff here
Wanna get the whole domain shut down?
staplemaniac - January 26, 2012
SOPA!
SRQman - January 27, 2012
if it gets mr. maniac banned, i'm for it
pudieron89 - January 27, 2012
lol
benderbrodriguez - January 27, 2012
Yeah I don't buy the Hamilton comparisons
I mean his Dad was a drug free power lifter and makes his work-out program for him and is around him all the time. Obviously I have no idea what he does in his spare time, but if there are people out there who think that just because he has a few tattoos that he is some how headed down the wrong path…well that’s just kind of stupid imo.
John Gregg - January 26, 2012
I don't disagree with you
But I can see where some people might debit him for it, even if it’s not justified.
Brickhaus - January 26, 2012
what the hell? he has tattoos? this may be the dumbest argument ive ever heard for discounting a prospect.
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
Old-school prospecters have discounted guys for dumber reasons before
I mean, probably half of scouts are retirees who are doing this essentially for fun. So you get some guy in his mid-60’s who sees a kid get drafted, get some cash, and all of a sudden gets covered in tattoos over the course of a year. Perhaps he takes that as a proxy that not everything is right upstairs, or that he’s lacking motivation, or something else. Old school people tend to have old school biases, and they can be pretty hard to shake. You see that in all sports – where someone gets undervalued because of something that shouldn’t matter, and nobody even says anything about it out loud, but people just inherently underrate them because of some characteristic that doesn’t sit right with them.
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
I hate those tattoos that Beej has on every square inch of his skin, makes him look lazier
Sandy Kazmir - January 27, 2012
that's all well and good, but to suggest that because he got a bunch of tattoos he will likely get in to a car accident and get addicted to oxys as a result is unspeakably insane.
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
He's also got a pretty serious farmer's tan
Sandy Kazmir - January 27, 2012
Awesome!
John Gregg - January 27, 2012
Am I saying this is my view?
Thinking someone can’t quarterback because he’s black is insane too, but that’s what most people thought until the mid-80’s.
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
so you're just positing that some people may discount him because of his tattoos and not mention why?
it just seems like inane speculation.
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
It is speculation
And I think my wording indicated that. But I gave the faulty logic behind it. You know scouting types. Valid or not, there tends to be negative associations for athletes with lots of tats. It was that way in the NBA even until LeBron basically. Outside of Hamilton, who ‘turned it around’ after getting the tattoos, can you think of a MLB player with lots of tattoos who isn’t perceived by many to have personality issues?
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
Ryan Roberts? Jon Rauch?
firemangreg - January 27, 2012
AJ Burnett? Carl Crawford?
benderbrodriguez - January 27, 2012
jose reyes
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
Felipe Lopez!
SandalsNoPants - January 27, 2012
Didn't his tatoos have something to do with his heritage?
mr. maniac - January 27, 2012
Yeah good point.
It’s important to remember that Sale is Somoan-American and tattoos are a big part of that culture.
You’re right at least some of his ink has to do with his heritage. I know the one on his arm is his Mom’s favorite Bible verse.
John Gregg - January 27, 2012
The old school prospectors will be happy to know then
that when I saw him at Winter Development Camp that he had a mohawk.
Yep…mohwak and tattoos…this kid is a real rabblerouser.
John Gregg - January 27, 2012
This from BA's Appy rankings
Imperialism32 - January 27, 2012
Meant to bold that last sentence
Imperialism32 - January 27, 2012
Thanks for pointing that out
I hadn’t seen that
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
And there seemed to have been some immediate benefits from that.
Last 10 games of season from 8/21-8/30 Sale was .323/.389/.516/.905.
John Gregg - January 27, 2012
SSS
benderbrodriguez - January 27, 2012
BABIP
mr. maniac - January 27, 2012
and his BABIP was terrible over the corse of the season. what's your point?
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
My point?
It was sarcasm.
mr. maniac - January 27, 2012
I mean obviously I'd rather see Sale put up those numbers than numbers like his rest of season ones, but we can't really draw any conclusions at all from 10 games
benderbrodriguez - January 27, 2012
brick,
im not going to respond to all of your posts on sale’s swing because there are so many. ill just put this here:
“prospectors” have said there were problems with his swing. ive never seen anyone say they were irreversible as you implied. he also had an injury (to his wrist i believe) that i think is partly to blame. imo, everyone is getting all chicken little on him because his results were bad. that seems to be the story every time.
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
This.
And while a small group of people didn’t like the swing before the draft, most people loved it.
mr. maniac - January 27, 2012
results in Appy league are generally irrelevant anyway
Unless they’ve changed their way, they haven’t tended to base their low-SS/complex rankings on performance in the past.
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
they can say it isnt based on results all they want, but these rankings ALWAYS track results very closely.
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
I'm not saying people aren't overreacting
But I am saying his stock legitimately dropped more than some here made it out to.
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
oh there's no doubt in my mind it's dropped.
then again, i thought he was overrated going in to last year as a bat-only prospect with no pro-experience/data. i still have him in the 10-20 range because i think the power will return, and he supposedly has a great work ethic/head on his shoulders (despite the tats). his k/bb numbers were fine it just seems he wasnt making GOOD contact. im willing to give him a pass because of the injury, but if he doesnt hit next year ill seriously downgrade him.
rglass44 - January 27, 2012
I'm with you 100%
But I’d have him at the back end of that range.
Brickhaus - January 27, 2012
this, along with the above,
“The 17th overall pick in 2010 and the most prized of the Rays’ Princeton prospect crop heading into the season, Sale evinced a power hitter’s strength and raw bat speed in his pro debut, but faulty swing mechanics hamstrung him for most of the season. At the urging of the Princeton coaching staff, he overhauled his swing in mid-August by eliminating the long stride that affected his swing path and altered his eye level.” force me to reiterate the original question of why the hell people are completely discounting Sale after one rookie ball year? it seems ludicrous to me…
davidsmarch - January 27, 2012
Dug up this old Friedman quote.
“He’s got an uncanny feel for the mechanics of his swing, what goes into being a successful hitter. With most high-school guys that we draft, it’s a process for us at the player-development side to educate them on that and he’s coming in extremely advanced on that front. We feel very good about the fact that he’ll be able to reach his max potential, because of who he is, the makeup, the work ethic and we are thrilled to get him where we did.”
So….assuming for a moment that there are folks out there that think his swing mechanics are uncorrectable…then the Rays REALLY goofed up, because based on this quote the ability to change stuff like that is one of the main reasons they drafted him.
I’m a believer, let’s give the kid another season before we even think about using the term “bust”.
John Gregg - January 27, 2012
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